178 comments

Fascinating that the only communications with Tyler Schultz, which was the main insider confronting the fraud, had all of ~4 exchanges with her. All in the same day.

Truly brave of him to go against the golden geese, despite turning his own family- and even former attorney generals & military officers- against him.

Its all on 4/11/2014.

Also interesting to see how Sunny & Holmes always thought it was Tyler, or the CLIA Lab Director (Adam) plotting against them.... when their scam was just in plain sight of regulators that bothered to actually do the work.

Holmes/Sunny reaction to Tyler's email and to Adam's resignation (Nov 2014) is one of outrage. Using the power inbalance to make their point, is 101 fraud.

mplewis
Sunny's response to Tyler's email, the one full of sincere concern for the well-being of the company:

Tyler.

We saw your email to Elizabeth.

Before I get into specifics, let me share with you that had this email come from anyone else in the company, I would have already held them accountable for the arrogant and patronizing tone and reckless comments. In your case, I am giving you the benefit of doubt that your intentions are in the right place, and am taking the time to respond, even though your tone in this email all the way through the last paragraph is not that of someone seeking to understand, but rather someone standing at higher perch of morality and business wisdom. Perhaps this too was not your intent but this clearly comes across as your mind set.

See my comments in red below.

gabaix
> someone standing at higher perch of morality and business wisdom

This is a good reminder that arguments on morality and wisdom are used and abused.

zaphar
And also a good reminder that if someone is coming off to you as "at a higher perch of morality and business wisdom" maybe you should listen to them.
I don't think that follows. A lot of folks like to position themselves as "holier-than-thou".
The key idea, perhaps, is that in questions of fact, tone is noise.

... and that doesn't mean one gets to discard the message because its tone is noisy. Especially when the message is warning of jail-time-worthy consequences for one's actions.

If someone says "Hey asshole, stop standing on those tracks, that's how idiots get dead..." Their tone makes it hard to accept their message but one is still standing on the tracks.

close04
Sunny's interpretation of the tone is another way of saying "you come here acting all superior". This is very different from accepting someone is superior, so it has the opposite effect of wanting to listen.

If someone is coming off to you as "all superior" you would only listen if you genuinely agree they are, and it's not an act. Otherwise you'll just see a person trying to make you feel inferior. Nobody listens unless they are truly convinced of that superiority, or else it's just an insult. Sunny of course chose to see this as an insult. The opposite, just listening to anyone who sounds superior is no better. There are many more signals to take into consideration before deciding whether someone's opinion is worth considering or taking into consideration.

bambax
I read the book (Bad Blood) and watched the mini-series (The Dropout) -- both absolutely great! and yet I still don't completely understand how Sunny & Holmes were able to fool experts inside their own company for so long.

Fooling the public is easy. But how do you fool the people working on the machines and trying to get actual results out of them? Sure, dividing the work into micro-tasks help, and creating an atmosphere of suspicion/excitement/respect for authority, etc. But still?!?

N_Lens
A case study in human psychology for sure.
$$$ and NDAs work
the level of political correctness he uses to write his email should be forbidden in any tech / medical company lol
regus
This is great, it reminds me of promotional websites from the Adobe Flash era. Ads were a lot more fun back then.
bolau
make ads fun again
MAFA
rdiddly
Make Ads Fun & Interesting Again - MAFIA
Better
topaz0
Make ads go away
They replaced the old space jam website with a boring href to a yt of the trailer :(

https://www.spacejam.com/

easton
It’s still there if you close that out: https://www.spacejam.com/1996/
I cant believe they've done this. They didnt even use iframes.
1-6
It should be trivial to reauthor .swf content to modern web standards.

https://github.com/sv1sjp/flash-swf-to-html5-toolkit

I get a secure connection failure. Maybe it's for the best
jorisw
From Elizabeth's Sent mailbox, 10/26/2015:

> Theranos is a revolutionary business, founded and led by a remarkable engineer and businesswoman - joined by a team of professionals who have, at their core, embraced her mission to serve humanity through innovation in health care.

4 lines and only the last 2 words tell us what they do
What they pretended to do more like it.
kokanee
Whoa. With a lidar scan of my house, a drone-captured point cloud of my neighborhood, and a backup of my icloud, I could create an immersive 3D snapshot of my life. And then what if other people did the same and we networked them together, so that we can actually interact in the snapshot. It'd be like second life except actually cloned from real lives. weird
lumost
I had a thought the other day that you could probably divide up the world into cubic miles and with a few thousand codex subscriptions make a high fidelity blender model of the entire world based on google maps, street view, and tagged location photos.

What would you do with a whole model of the world? I don't know, but it would be fun to walk a national park while I'm on the treadmill or basejump off of a realistic el capitan.

Bro just go outside
no sorry have to keep in touch with agents
Who else is gonna type “just implement it” or press enter repeatedly
Microsoft has done that to some extent with Flight Simulator using older machine learning techniques. Wouldn't call most of the world high fidelity yet but I'm sure they could get there with generative AI models. I'm also sure the anti-AI screeching in the gaming community would be heard for miles.

Would also make a great Zwift competitor (cycling app where you can hook up your stationary bike and race or ride on certain routes).

ninju
Microsoft Flight Simulator’s world map covers the entire Earth at approximately 1:1 scale: about 510 million square kilometres of surface, including roughly 149 million km² of land

Ref: https://flyawaysimulation.com/ask/answers/microsoft-flight-s...

I think they cheat somewhat with the ocean when far from labdy
I love doing flybys of my house in MSFS
In that case generative AI could be defended as a privacy preserving measure, I guess.
finghin
…In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Province occupied the entirety of a City, and the map of the Empire, the entirety of a Province. In time, those Unconscionable Maps no longer satisfied, and the Cartographers Guilds struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire, and which coincided point for point with it. The following Generations, who were not so fond of the Study of Cartography as their Forebears had been, saw that that vast Map was Useless, and not without some Pitilessness was it, that they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map, inhabited by Animals and Beggars; in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography.

(Borges)

Pretty sure I've seen experiments to do this using a combination of AI and traditional photogrammetry.
If only google could use their AI to generate a wiremesh model out of their google maps streetview data, and make it public. And then another model to generate texture.
You could pitch the idea to Zuck, see if he wants to burn $100b to try it out.
LASR
No please. Not again.
Why not, it's big tech money, at least share it with the poor.
zbycz
It seems we will be having gaussian-splatted 3D world soon.

eg. https://www.nianticspatial.com/products/capture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-S-x0b9TrE

WD-42
And then you realize how boring it is.
That is exactly the idea of some minecraft projects: Mapping the entire world into minecraft.
I mean Second Life has been around since 2003... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Life

I wasted a lot of hours in it when I was a teen.

It's so strange to see this here. I remember when this site was nothing but foaming-at-the-mouth fawning adoration of Elizabeth Holmes long after her scams were exposed.
andybak
My first memory of her being mentioned on this site was the dawning skepticism followed by the big expose. But it's possible I missed the fawning because it didn't sound as interesting
car
I posted about Theranos 2013. Not entirely sure, but I think it was when they launched publicly.

Crazy how my gut feeling was more than vindicated.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6349349

vconnor
A lot of the comments on that thread are about how the board is full of military/CIA it smells like a cover company. It had Henry Kissinger on it of all people.

Did we ever find out what all those people were doing at Theranos? I really haven’t kept up to date.

One of the unspoken secrets of research is that a lot of people are doing it to keep themselves in a job. It is perfectly possible to do research for years which goes nowhere, just goes over old ground etc. As long as the money rolls in, someone's making a living and not necessarily dishonestly if they're at the lower levels.
I have a theory! They saw all the other security state people involved, and figured this was something it would be a good career move to support without knowing exactly why.

"Don't obey in advance", Tim Snyder said. But obeying in advance is called showing initiative and is a great career move. In secretive industries it can be hard to know what to obey in advance, but they don't let that stop them!

I think there was a lot of resentment here because of how easily it appeared she was raising money and how quickly the company grew at first without having a working product and a murmur from experts that their miniaturization play may not be able to work at all.
I remember before the expose a friend that did blood draws for a living was just like, “huh? It’s impossible to do the tests without a larger sample, it’s just not how it works”.
moomin
I recall there were plenty of people on here going into bat for Theranos way after others were calling it fraud.

The thing is, she expertly rode a belief system that was already prevalent: that SV was going to change the world and that SV and what was happening there was different. Plenty of WeWork fans as well. Plenty of fans of firms that actually did something as well, but most of those "did something"s were a website.

Marazan
WeWork fans were incredible.
potamic
This is an ad for her upcoming, self-starred documentary. So nothing much has changed?
In the "Notes" app on the iphone, there is a note which says "msg me on X". Back then, it was Twitter. Boy, I hope somebody got fired for that blunder.
bolau
good catch, i may need to find a new job soon
[Scoff, Scoff]
What are we to believe this is some sort of, snort heh* magic iPhone or something?
ibejoeb
She was truly ahead of her time.
yawnxyz
its still called twitter

(for some of us)

I will never call it X and die violently on this hill
bricss
How about Xitter? :)
nikcub
pronounced "shitter"?
abrowne
I've accepted X and call the posts "crements"
r_lee
it's just kinda awkward, but worse than just "X" is the fact that now you're supposed to call tweets "posts on X" or "X posts"

like come on... it was so good before

drybjed
If Elon Musk can deadname, we can too.
baggachipz OC
Rest assured that I still refuse to call it X, it's so stupid. But I couldn't pass up the opportunity in this instance. :)
I'd love to agree with you but that look like the site designer asking for feedback on his site
xbryanx
“X” was actually a pre-Twitter BBS focused on transgenics and corpuscular macronutrients, based in Fort Worth. Any true believers would know that.
ozgung
> I hope somebody got fired for that blunder

Their name is probably Claude.

l0c0b0x
Why do I have Nathan Fielder's look in my face (same when he was staring at as EH on the pilot), as I'm going through all the features on this site?
Hope you're lounging on somebody else's bed too, while you're doing that. :D
Ok, I have to ask : is there a way to get a "cartridge" to insert into the theranos machine ?

I would love to have the machine "function" up to a point (except, actually doing the analysis results in a "NotImplementedException" of some kind.à

rspeele
Keep clicking the menus on the screen rather than clicking on the tray itself. When you click “load cartridge” on screen it materializes and closes.

I also initially looked around the desk for a physical cartridge, such was the effectiveness of the rest of the “game”.

Burying the api key in notes on the laptop is a nice touch.
IncRnd
I need to delete that key again. I keep recreating it with the same value, but nothing seems to work. I want to use this key with the value but in a way that nobody else knows the value. Sigh. Security is difficult.
dijit
All I feel is that UI of MacOS and iOS is so inferior now than it was then... :\
only because it was. We peaked with skeuomorphism at the turn of millenium.
If only apps were opening in an instant, odd feeling of having it on random website but not have it natively.
Unfortunately the OS itself won't be the be-all / end-all, crossplatform (web) apps and a lack of care for optimization are the other major issue. I just timed how long it takes to open the 'calendar' tab in Teams - 8.5 seconds. MacOS' own calendar app takes <2 seconds (unrepresentative test due to factors) and does not show a screen with a spinner.
Mizza
Same, but for that generation of MacBook Air. Insane quality and value for the price. And you didn't have to wait 6 weeks to get them!

Although I bet Lizzie used a Pro..